Why Top-Performing Schools Invest in Both Academics AND Emotional Learning
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Discover why the highest-performing schools invest equally in academics AND social emotional learning.
In this episode, Dr. Pete Sullivan—a nearly 40-year education veteran who's served as teacher, principal, and superintendent across multiple Illinois districts—reveals the research-backed strategies that make SEL programs successful. You'll learn how 500+ studies prove SEL actually enhances academic achievement, practical approaches for teacher-led implementation that respects classroom time, and proven methods for building parent and community support.
What You'll Learn
Why the "academics vs. SEL" debate is based on false assumptions
How to implement SEL without sacrificing instructional time
Strategies for overcoming common community objections
The culture-integration approach that makes SEL sustainable
How to build authentic partnerships with parents and families
Guest Bio
Dr. Pete Sullivan brings nearly four decades of P-12 education experience, having served in virtually every leadership role from classroom teacher to district superintendent. He's worked in Chicago Public Schools as well as Lockport, Lisle, and Will County districts in Illinois. Currently an Assistant Professor of Educational Leadership at the University of St. Francis, Pete coordinates the Resilient Youth Initiative through United Way of Will County, helping districts across the region implement effective SEL programs.
Thank you!
Thank you for listening to the Raising Resilient Kids Podcast! We are siblings on a mission to help kids become their strongest selves by sharing proven strategies with parents, teachers, and coaches to build resilient, confident kids who can tackle life's challenges and thrive.
For more information on the podcast, or if you have a question you would like answered by one of our expert guests, please visit us at –
https://www.smarthwp.com/raisingresilientkidspodcast.
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Episode Transcript
Tom: [00:00:00] Did you know that schools that invest in resilience training and social emotional learning don't sacrifice academic achievement? They actually see better test scores and graduation rates. Today we're joined by Dr. Pete Sullivan, who brings nearly 40 years of experience from classroom teacher to district superintendent. He's gonna share why the highest performing districts focus on the whole child and how to build teacher, administrator, parent, and community support for these initiatives. Whether you're advocating for SEL in your district or trying to implement it effectively, these proven strategies will give you the tools and confidence to create schools where kids thrive both emotionally and academically. I'm Tom.
Jeannie: And I'm Jeannie. We are siblings on a mission to help kids become their strongest selves. Each episode we share proven strategies with parents, teachers, and all who work with youth and teens to build resilient, confident kids who can tackle life's challenges and thrive. Welcome to the Raising Resilient Kids [00:01:00] Podcast.
Tom: Today we are thrilled to have Dr. Pete Sullivan with us. During his nearly 40 year career in P through 12 education, he has done just about everything. He's been a classroom teacher, a dean, an assistant principal, a principal, an assistant superintendent of curriculum instruction, a district superintendent, and the assistant regional superintendent.
He worked in Chicago public schools as well as Lockport, Lisle and Will County Schools in Illinois. Pete is also an assistant professor of educational leadership at the University of St. Francis. And I have had the tremendous pleasure of getting to know Pete through his role in coordinating the Resilient Youth Initiative, through the United Way of Will County.
So Pete, thank you so much for being here!
Pete: Thanks for having me.
Tom: First question is, you know, you spent a lot of time in schools. Can you tell us what are your feelings on social emotional learning, SEL and, and the impact that it has on the classroom?
Pete: I think that social emotional impact is at the [00:02:00] heart of what we're doing as educators when we're working with students throughout the course of their elementary, junior high and high school years. Ultimately, our goal is to prepare our students to be successful beyond the doors of school and helping them to be, happy, focused, well adjusted, knowledgeable citizens of our country is really at the heart of that, and SEL really speaks to ensuring that.
We work to make sure that we help students to develop and grow. We help them to understand how to interact with others, and we help them to understand if they're dealing with issues where maybe they need some support beyond what is normally the case.
The other thing that I, I like to highlight when it comes to SEL is it is clearly known that SEL supports academic growth. There's a false narrative out there that that emerges [00:03:00] every five or 10 years or so that schools have to make a choice between supporting students in their personal growth and supporting them in their academic growth. But study after study after study confirms that in schools where students feel they have a sense of belonging, in which they're comfortable to take risks, like risks associated with learning and risks to be wrong they do better academically.
There was a recent analysis of SEL studies that put together I, I think, over 500 studies. And it was consistently found that districts, which support SEL, districts which really invest in the sense of belonging and purpose of students do exceptionally well. And that those districts yield positive results beyond what would be expected based upon academic efforts alone.
People, when they feel like there's a sense of [00:04:00] belonging, a sense of connectedness, they're gonna wanna do better, they're gonna feel supported. And when they experience challenges, either academically or personally, they're gonna feel that there's people there to support them.
So I think all of these things go together, and that's why I've been such a strong proponent of SEL as my career has evolved.
Tom: That's great. Thanks Pete. Yeah, there's so much evidence out there. Just, just really proving this stuff works in, in all aspects.
Pete: And the other thing is, I, I think that it goes beyond just students, I think as adults, as workers. When people feel valued, when they feel a sense of belonging, they're gonna be successful. There is no such thing as a perfect company, but if you look at the growth of some really powerful companies, part of what they focused very much on was giving people an opportunity to grow, to support them in the development of their knowledge to help them to be successful as [00:05:00] individuals. I think at the end of the day, whether it's in our personal lives, whether it's in our professional lives, whether it's looking back to our time as students, and even for those who are educators today, when you feel a sense of support and you feel that you're valued, you're gonna do your very best work.
Jeannie: That is so true. So true.
Tom: I know a lot of teachers agree with you, the importance of social emotional learning. What do you have any advice for for teachers who wanna kind of advocate for more SEL initiatives, SEL programming in their districts? How should they do that?
Pete: I think it starts with coming together as a school and district community. I don't think it has to be an adversarial process. And I think that sometimes where SEL and where even other initiatives gets in trouble is, when teachers feel like it's something, that's, that they're not being included in, in terms of the development of the program.
And so I think that one of the things from an administrative [00:06:00] perspective, it's always important to do, is to make sure that teacher voices are very much a part of working to shape and implement and develop and make decisions around any program, certainly including SEL. I think in really strong districts, there's a lot of focus on ensuring that teachers have input.
I think that teachers who are supportive of it can highlight the fact that this isn't an either/or when it comes to academic achievement. That we can support our commitment to students doing their best work, that we can support higher levels of academic achievement, that we can bring about renewed commitment to meet the needs of each individual student by meeting their needs as individuals.
One of the things we've seen in our work together, Tom, with Resilient Youth and working with the outstanding districts, across Will County, is we've seen districts take very different approaches in [00:07:00] terms of how they'll implement it, who will be driving it, how it will fit into their schedule, how it will, you know, fit into the larger efforts ongoing throughout the organization.
And so I think one of the things that's important to remember is there's no one step approach. That part of what teachers have to do, administrators have to do, is to make sure that they're making decisions that allow SEL, to be the most impactful in their individual school community.
Tom: I agree with you completely. I, you know, that is what I love about this program, is they do, they customize it. They know their students better than anybody, so they know what's gonna work with them. There's so many different things you can do in SEL, and they're the ones who can kind of pick out the key things that are really gonna work with that student population.
Pete: I think one of the things that we've gotten better at, in, in many districts over the course of the last, how many years I, I don't want to give a number to years, is we understand [00:08:00] exactly what you brought up Tom. We understand the greatest experts, that about working with students in a particular district are the people who have given at times, decades of their lives to supporting students and to being a part of that learning community. And so I think, you know, working in tandem with teachers is so very important, not just in shaping it, but having teachers who are leaders in it and helping to support their colleagues is so critically important.
Tom: On that note, talking about, you know, more SEL, what are the common objections that people typically have, uh, of over SEL programs, and then how, how would teachers, schools, you know, overcome those?
Pete: There's, there's some, I think that, that districts need to be mindful of. The reality of it is teachers only have so many minutes with students in front of them in a day, and that is a very real concern. And, if we're gonna devote time to SEL, what, [00:09:00] what does that mean for the rest of the day and how do you work to make sure you're meeting your core academic obligations if you're also gonna be doing some focus work, around, that. I think it's really important to involve teachers in making those decisions and in having those conversations.
On the other hand, I think some others would argue devoting time to SEL takes away from academic opportunities. And I've shared a couple times before, the research just doesn't bear that out. Research is pretty clear that districts that focus on the whole child do better academically.
I think there's also been some members of some communities who have thought that SEL is an attempt to make decisions on behalf of, parents and family decisions. And I think, everyone's respectful of the role of families and we're not talking about anything that would go [00:10:00] beyond norms.
For example, if students in at the high school level are taking high stress, semester exams and taking very important ACT type exams, or are taking placement exams, maybe in vocational settings or at, community colleges. Equipping them with ways to deal with that kind of stress, that falls under SEL.
Jeannie: Well, Pete, I wanna ask, so, you know, Tom did say at the start of this that you have been, you know, in an educator in some role for 40 years. Uh, I would assume that almost 40, uh.
Pete: I am.
Jeannie: Rude Tom. Very rude. Very rude, Tom. Well, aside from my rude brother, I was gonna say, however, 30 plus years ago, I would assume that SEL, was it even a term? You are so well versed in it and you can tell you have such a passion for it.[00:11:00] Did you have that from the start?
Pete: I think good teachers understand the sense of building a sense of community in classrooms. And I think, you know, one of the things that I was very fortunate with at the start of my career. Is working with some teachers who really had that ability to, to build a sense of community where students felt that they were supported. So the the terminologies change every 10 years, but that sense of community is clear. And, and the other thing I would say is, the idea of culture is so important. So I think in good schools they've had that culture of supporting students and helping them to grow. And it's endemic in the educational process. I think that individual terminologies, SEL, all these other concepts have have come about. I think that SEL you know, I think when we think of it sometimes, if it's [00:12:00] just something that's done six, eight times in individual lessons, it's limited in terms its impact. When it has the greatest impact is when you have the opportunity for students to have some of the same lessons across their school day.
Tom: I think spreading it out so that everybody's using the same language is so important because, maybe I don't really like or get along with my English teacher if, you know, I just don't click with my English teacher for some reason as a student, and if that's the only person teaching it I might ignore them. Bbut if my coach is teaching it or my math teacher is teaching it, everybody's doing it, um, you know, it's likely that at least one person in that school I'm gonna kind of look up to and if I'm hearing the same thing from that person, I'm probably gonna start practicing these, these techniques.
Pete: And I, I also think that there, the idea that there's consistent messages being sent. I also think that it's important that the districts that, and schools that are committed to the social emotional learning, , that parents [00:13:00] are able to be part of the process and I think that it is important to make sure they understand what it is that we're doing because I think sometimes when we don't communicate, it creates a vacuum and that's where there can be misunderstanding.
The power is, if you think about it, if you have students, where there's a shared sense of supporting students across a community in terms of the classrooms at the school level to district level and that families are aware of it as well, it's amazing how powerful it can be.
Tom: Speaking of parents, what are, what do you think the role parents can play or the community can play in supporting SEL?
Pete: I think, parents do a great job by asking important questions. When I was a principal or superintendent, it wasn't my school, it was the community’s school.
And so, I think being inclusive and making sure you're being respectful in terms of the parents, and I think communicating with them and, ensuring that there's opportunities for two-way [00:14:00] dialogue I think is so important.
None of this takes away from the role of parents, the primary, and foundational role of parents in terms of raising children. It's, it's another way to support the development of children, which is ultimately the goal of the schools and ensure they're successful during the course of their time with us in schools and beyond. I'm a parent of four. I understand that firsthand and, I, I think we need to be clear that SEL programs, cannot and should not, have any vision or context that might make it appear that we're trying to do anything other than fulfill our roles in helping students develop and be partners with parents in meeting the needs of each individual child.
Tom: Pete, this has been great, so, so many wonderful ideas. Thank you so much. Any, any final advice you'd give to [00:15:00] schools, teachers, administrators, whoever that are about implementing any SEL initiatives?
Pete: I think that there, there, there is no cookie cutter approach. You have to work in partnership with teachers, with administration, with families in order, to, be successful. That has to be part of a larger culture and a larger commitment to help and support the growth of each individual child.
Tom: Pete, thank you so much for being here!
Jeannie: Thank you so much!
Pete is so great
Tom: He is. He is. And I'll tell you that's, that's one of the best things about this project that I know, you know, I've been working on kind of rolling out resiliency training to the schools in in Will county here in Illinois. It's just not only that, you know, I'm getting the opportunity to do that with so many different teachers and social workers and administrators, but I'm getting to meet some really fantastic people like Pete and like the folks from the the United Way, that really spend their whole lives just trying to help [00:16:00] people, trying to help kids. It's been a fantastic experience and, and Pete's been a huge part of that, a huge part of the success that, that we've had with that, that initiative.
Jeannie: I mean, you can just tell he's just such a, a, a good guy and somebody like you said, who just has dedicated such a huge majority of his life to the students, like to the schools, I mean, kind of done everything I feel like you can do in the school system, at least to my knowledge. And for him to have such a passion for and to see the importance of this. Like that's somebody that you listen to I mean, I know you know, Pete, you always say how much you just love Pete.
He's just such a great guy. You've had many conversations with Pete. What stuck out with you in this one?
Tom: There's a couple things that, that I would say with this is it's stuff that Pete's kind of really tried to reinforce and, and it makes complete sense. Really getting the teachers involved in the development of it, not putting it, you know, just forcing the teachers to do it. Nobody ever likes being forced to do [00:17:00] anything. And, and, and second, they know their kids best. So, so, you know, getting them involved in the process, and in addition to that, like he also mentioned kinda it, it can't just be a few lessons, it's really gotta be throughout the school day.
So one of the things that, you know, we've been doing with this, this resiliency training, we've been offering it to schools. Sometimes it's teachers that roll it out. Sometimes it's like throughout the PE and the health curriculum, sometimes it's social workers. Another thing we've been adding to this, we've got, you know, these programs, this, this Mind of a Champion program, the Stress Less for the Test program, where they can start to offer it.
Actually, you know, coaches too. So, so they get it both, you know, during school and after school, reinforcing these lessons. One of the things that, that, that Pete talks about a lot is, Will County's where we've been, where we've been rolling it out, and he really wants the County to be, be a resilient county, you know, in, in general just having resiliency across the spectrum.
And that's why some of the newer programs that we're rolling out we're actually, we're putting [00:18:00] online so that we don't have to go into teachers that, that teachers can take it whenever they're, they have time, but parents can take it, kids can take it themselves. So that, you know, they, they're hearing it in many, many different locations.
Jeannie: It's really treating the whole child. I mean, the whole child is in school, out of school, when they're at sports practice, you know, whatever it is. And like you said, if you can make that available to all of the people that are in a child's life, you really are teaching the whole child.
Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Great. All right, well
Jeannie: Pete, you were right. You told me before we did this, you said, Pete is such a great guy and gosh, you were spot on. He was so great.
Tom: Thank you Pete again, and, uh, we'll see y'all next month. Thanks for listening.